tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3248412803814730250.post5841218756305055173..comments2024-03-17T01:48:59.504-07:00Comments on The Theropod Database Blog: Do we have dromaeosaurid evolution backwards?Mickey Mortimerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08831823442911513851noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3248412803814730250.post-31183046708745936752011-08-21T08:29:51.738-07:002011-08-21T08:29:51.738-07:00Thanks for the link.Thanks for the link.David Marjanovićnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3248412803814730250.post-60214077009706631132011-08-19T21:16:02.788-07:002011-08-19T21:16:02.788-07:00I should clarify I meant three steps less likely t...I should clarify I meant three steps less likely than a backwards dromaeosaur topology including microraptorians. Not three steps less likely than the most parsimonious tree.Mickey Mortimerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08831823442911513851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3248412803814730250.post-30406390301005909162011-08-19T21:11:39.271-07:002011-08-19T21:11:39.271-07:00"How unlikely is it that Eudromaeosauria evol..."How unlikely is it that Eudromaeosauria evolved from fairly basal maniraptoriforms close to Ornitholestes, but Microraptoria was in or near Avialae?"<br /><br />At the moment, three steps less likely. Microraptorians become sister to troodontids.<br /><br />"The Haplocheirus-compsognathid node in my Samrukia analysis is merely an effect of taxon sampling: when all coelurosaurs are included (my whole analysis) alvarezsauroids aren't related to compsognathids."<br /><br />I suspected as much, but the resemblence must still be there for a thousand character analysis to recover that topology.Mickey Mortimerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08831823442911513851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3248412803814730250.post-90965214956420827612011-08-19T02:08:43.473-07:002011-08-19T02:08:43.473-07:00The Haplocheirus-compsognathid node in my Samrukia...The Haplocheirus-compsognathid node in my Samrukia analysis is merely an effect of taxon sampling: when all coelurosaurs are included (my whole analysis) alvarezsauroids aren't related to compsognathids.Andrea Cauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10855060597677361866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3248412803814730250.post-50649571662556768822011-08-18T08:14:44.186-07:002011-08-18T08:14:44.186-07:00How unlikely is it that Eudromaeosauria evolved fr...How unlikely is it that Eudromaeosauria evolved from fairly basal maniraptoriforms close to Ornitholestes, but Microraptoria was in or near Avialae?Bradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15613329277334129312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3248412803814730250.post-18207596022544810222011-08-18T05:31:38.365-07:002011-08-18T05:31:38.365-07:00"Long live Coeluroidea!"
Here here! Sta..."Long live Coeluroidea!"<br /><br />Here here! Stability be damned, the best reason to honor priority in these cases is that is reflects scientific discovery rather than masking it. "We used to think T. rex was a carnosaur, but now we know it's not only a coelurosaur, but a true coeluroid!"<br /><br />"Imagine a MANIAC reading this. I suppose they'd react this way. "<br /><br />I had the opposite thought, since dromies converging on birds was their original hypothesis to begin with. But, whatever--BANDits are not wrong because they just are, but because the current evidence supports it. if, say, evidence began to suggest that birds derived from a non-dinosaurian dinosauromorph scnassoriopterygid ancestor (similar to Czerkas' hypothesis) and that dromaeosaurs etc. were dinosaurs which happened to converge on birds, well, that's how it is. Very unlikely of course, but stuff like this shouldn't be treated as absolutely impossible.Matt Martyniukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04220900229537564466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3248412803814730250.post-61587445301791070422011-08-18T05:04:49.867-07:002011-08-18T05:04:49.867-07:00Long live Coeluroidea!
"Anything at all what...Long live Coeluroidea!<br /><br />"Anything at all whatsoever is known about "Paleopteryx"? That's news to me! Where can I learn more?"<br /><br />Why the same place you should go for all your theropod information- http://home.comcast.net/~eoraptor/Dromaeosaurs.htm#Paleopteryxthomsoni<br /><br />"So you think troodontids and birds would stay together?"<br /><br />They do in the constraint trees, and adding Anchiornis and Jinfengopteryx can only strengthen that. There are also less drastic alternatives like Ornitholestes being a basal paravian.<br /><br />"May I ask where Archaeopteryx goes?"<br /><br />Standard position. You'll be annoyed to find out the Xiaotingia matrix only gets deinonychosaurian Archaeopteryx because none of the characters are ordered. If they're all ordered, Archaeopteryx is an avialan. Of course, the truth is that only some of the characters should be ordered, but that's a subject for another post....Mickey Mortimerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08831823442911513851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3248412803814730250.post-31828203765470671092011-08-18T04:21:14.875-07:002011-08-18T04:21:14.875-07:00What I also wanted to mention...
Imagine a MANIAC...What I also wanted to mention...<br /><br />Imagine a MANIAC reading this. I suppose they'd react <a href="http://www.nooooooooooooooo.com/" rel="nofollow">this way</a>.David Marjanovićnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3248412803814730250.post-78114401980430241782011-08-18T04:13:18.714-07:002011-08-18T04:13:18.714-07:00Lori has quite long arms for a troodontid. Longer ...Lori has quite long arms for a troodontid. Longer than <i>Jinfengopteryx</i>.<br /><br />Anything at all whatsoever is known about "Paleopteryx"? That's news to me! Where can I learn more?<br /><br /><i>with ornithomimosaurs, alvarezsaurids, therizinosaurs, dromaeosaurids and troodontids+birds each developing their birdlike and/or herbivorous characters separately</i><br /><br />So you think troodontids and birds would stay together?<br /><br /><i>The in progress Lori matrix finds a fairly traditional tree with </i>Ornitholestes<i> sister to Maniraptoriformes, microraptorians and </i>Unenlagia<i> basal among dromaeosaurids, and is somewhat unusual in finding troodontids sister to birds.</i><br /><br />May I ask where <i>Archaeopteryx</i> goes?David Marjanovićnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3248412803814730250.post-46235776192056023222011-08-18T01:06:44.915-07:002011-08-18T01:06:44.915-07:00But seriously, I think I know what you're driv...But seriously, I think I know what you're driving at... If a lot of the "birdy" paravians get sucked into the Avialae (such as Anchiornis, Archaeopteryx, Jinfengopteryx, scansoriopterygids, etc), then many "birdy" characters cease to be symplesiomorphic for Paraves, and instead become homoplastic for Avialae and 'derived' dromaeosaurids (like Microraptorinae). Dromaeosauridae would parallel the Alvarezsauridae in having the most bird-like forms as the last to evolve. Instead of having some little winged critter at the base of the Maniraptora, we have a more conventional predator similar to Ornitholestes.Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17837037454015036429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3248412803814730250.post-59971361748818001362011-08-18T00:57:43.451-07:002011-08-18T00:57:43.451-07:00Priority schmiority! When a Coeluridae-Tyrannosau...Priority schmiority! When a Coeluridae-Tyrannosauridae clade was recovered in one analysis, it was still called Tyrannosauroidea, even though Coeluroidea should have had priority, on nomenclatural grounds. ;-)Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17837037454015036429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3248412803814730250.post-26841070248899044772011-08-17T23:12:02.722-07:002011-08-17T23:12:02.722-07:00Ah ... I remember this conversation, Mickey. We we...Ah ... I remember this conversation, Mickey. We were testing polarities, I think, in direct regard to <i>Achillobator</i>...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3248412803814730250.post-60231947322957459592011-08-17T22:49:50.243-07:002011-08-17T22:49:50.243-07:00Compsognathids can never be alvarezsauroids, since...Compsognathids can never be alvarezsauroids, since Compsognathoidea would have priority. But of course you knew that. :)<br /><br />Makovicky (2005) is his unpublished thesis which only used vertebral characters, so did not include the Tanycolagreus manus. If anyone has the figures for the thesis, I would be eternally grateful. The full ref is-<br /><br />Makovicky, 1995. Phylogenetic aspects of the vertebral morphology of Coelurosauria (Dinosauria: Theropoda). M.S. thesis, Univ. Copenhagen. 311 pp.<br /><br />I got the Lori pdf link from its Wikipedia page, where it's reference #1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WDC_DML_001<br /><br />I should clarify too that none of what I say here is based on privileged information on Lori (since it's the last taxon I'm adding, I haven't even looked at it yet), nor are the current results anything close to what I expect the final results to be (since I still have to add 100+ taxa and 200+ characters).Mickey Mortimerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08831823442911513851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3248412803814730250.post-9506801129697886172011-08-17T22:21:39.901-07:002011-08-17T22:21:39.901-07:00I don't what analysis "Makovicky (1995)&q...I don't what analysis "Makovicky (1995)" is referring to, but for Ornitholestes did it include the manus now referred to Tanycolagreus?<br /><br />P.S. The link to Hartman et al.'s SVP poster doesn't work.Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17837037454015036429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3248412803814730250.post-64070985963126836102011-08-17T22:07:54.660-07:002011-08-17T22:07:54.660-07:00"The Jurassic Haplocheirus also supports this..."The Jurassic Haplocheirus also supports this idea, since it shows serrated teeth and a general morphology so primitive that Cau's Sumrukia matrix found it to clade with compsognathids."<br /><br />I've always thought that alvarezsaurs evolved from a Compsognathus-like ancestor, with forelimb truncation preceding the evolution of the specialized monodactyl forelimb. So I think we're close to a topology in which not just Haplocheirus but ALL alvarezsaurs are in fact compsognathids. Or to put it another way, compsognathids are basal alvarezsauroids.Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17837037454015036429noreply@blogger.com